John F Kennedy Jr’s style was sloppy
- Thread starter PeterNSteinmetz
- Start date
I suspect the editors who wrote the headline about his dress did not realize how he might be characterized as sloppy in other ways.Bill Jennings said:
Basically night VFR over water with haze, correct? So he becomes spatially disoriented and was not able to recover from an unusual attitude using instruments, isn’t that correct?Bill Greenwood said:
I know it can be very confusing, possibly create panic when you realize the airplane is in a very messed up attitude, and the steps to recovery need to be practiced and nearly automatic. I guess he just didn’t have the recovery steps wired?
Do you have waves of women following you also? I really do hope we can meet sometime soon :emoji6:Stan Cooper said:
More of an error in ADM then? I guess he had flown this route a fair number of times in better conditions, which may have led to complacency about the night conditions, which were not originally planned.dbahn said:
I don’t know that I would have planned such a flight in similar conditions, but I agree that it seems like the sort of error an average pilot could let sneak up on them. OTOH, I started instrument training pretty much right after private, so didn’t have to consider decisions like that for very long.
The MzeroA video certainly puts a lot of blame on decision making other than just not knowing the risk level of that kind of flying, at least as contributing factors. Also if he was not night current, that might explain his decision to turn out over the water as the sun is setting and try to get down more quickly.
Agree about the likely motivations of the editors. I don’t think they understood the possible other way the man was “sloppy”.murphey said:
Also, I don’t know that the writers thought their article was morbid at all.
The description in the video seemed to me like an increasingly large set of overcorrections and a stall-spin.Clip4 said:
I guess my use of ironic has been confusing to people :-(Clip4 said:
I do agree that would be an odd equation.
What I found somewhat ironic is that the writer in the fashion magazine would not understand there could be a second, more morbid, meaning of their title. It struck me immediately as a pilot just passing over the title and I thought others here might also appreciate it.
I guess I can see how people might read my comment as implying there was an irony in someone who was a sloppy dresser ending up in an airplane crash due to poor decision making or risk management. If there was an association between these two, which I am not convinced there was, I am not sure I would find it sufficiently unexpected to think it was ironic.
To help avoid future confusion, here is one definition of ironic:
i·ron·ic, adjective, happening in the opposite way to what is expected, and typically causing wry amusement because of this.
So this got me to wondering if there was a connection between his sartorial sense and the cause of the crash.
I am undecided on the validity of that, but it appears there was a perception at the time that he was sort of an irresponsible glamorous guy and that was connected with poor decision making. See for example http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/013726.html which reviews some of the contemporaneous emails.
I vaguely remember at the time of the crash a lot of the popular media coming down on JFK, Jr for that reason.
I am undecided on the validity of that, but it appears there was a perception at the time that he was sort of an irresponsible glamorous guy and that was connected with poor decision making. See for example http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/013726.html which reviews some of the contemporaneous emails.
I vaguely remember at the time of the crash a lot of the popular media coming down on JFK, Jr for that reason.
No, but I tend to agree with Jamie Kirk that given the statement about wanting to do it alone could indicate a macho attitude. Or at least an overconfident and careless one.Clip4 said:
This was also the take in the MZeroA video.
So I was at the gliderport today and heard the following regarding JFK, Jr. and his piloting skills. This was told to me by a CFI who stated that he knew the CFI-G with whom JFK, Jr. was training to fly gliders. This CFI-G was located in New England. Evidently the CFI knew the other CFI well.
So this is coming third hand so please use appropriate caution in interpreting, noting that no glider training for JFK, Jr. is listed in the NTSB report on the accident. Of course neither is training for other types of aircraft, such as powered parachutes or ultralights.
JFK Jr’s CFI-G apparently found him to be a terrible student. He would fail to pay attention and note risks so badly that after some time trying to train him, the CFI-G told him he would not train him any further, that he should not be a pilot, and that he would no longer be allowed to train in gliders at their facility.
I don’t believe this aspect of this has been reported elsewhere previously.
So this is coming third hand so please use appropriate caution in interpreting, noting that no glider training for JFK, Jr. is listed in the NTSB report on the accident. Of course neither is training for other types of aircraft, such as powered parachutes or ultralights.
JFK Jr’s CFI-G apparently found him to be a terrible student. He would fail to pay attention and note risks so badly that after some time trying to train him, the CFI-G told him he would not train him any further, that he should not be a pilot, and that he would no longer be allowed to train in gliders at their facility.
I don’t believe this aspect of this has been reported elsewhere previously.
The reason I ran across this story is that I was asking people what they knew about the JFK Jr crash. In general, younger people knew basically nothing about it. People over 50 generally had a recollection that he was not instrumented rated and was flying at night in marginal weather and crashed, killing several other people.
Definitely 3rd hand so much salt required. I thought it was an interesting report though.Doc Holliday said:
Might be interesting to review the NTSB report and the MZeroA video as linked above.olasek said:
I don’t believe he was night current for carrying passengers. No flight plan filed or weather briefing obtained, just a check on the METAR at the destination.
A fair amount of poor decision making, including the final decision to continue a night VFR flight with no visual horizon without being an instrument rated pilot.
I guess I don’t know the exact regulatory language, but doesn’t VFR flight require having a visual horizon, at least to do so safely.olasek said:
From the NTSB report of probable cause “The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be: The pilot's failure to maintain control of the airplane during a descent over water at night, which was a result of spatial disorientation. Factors in the accident were haze, and the dark night.”
Strikes me as mentioning darkness as a factor, though I suppose it does not explicitly mention the decision explicitly.
I will defer to the opinion of CFIs here as to the safety of flying at night without visual indication of the horizon.
Seems there is an analysis at AOPA about this crash - https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2010/july/pilot/10-mistakes-jfk-jr-made
And a book about it - https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Jr-years-Pilots-Perspective/dp/0966847229/ref=sr_1_3
And a book about it - https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Jr-years-Pilots-Perspective/dp/0966847229/ref=sr_1_3
Please note the full qualifier I had, “at least to do so SAFELY”. And so please don’t misquote me in order to try and justify an assumption about my knowledge - thanks.timwinters said:
Agreed that more precisely there is no regulatory requirement for a visual horizon for VFR flight at night.
It appears in terms of regs he may have also violated the requirement for night currency carrying passengers (though his most recent logbooks were not available).
I actually enjoy night flight a fair amount, but have only have much of it after obtaining my instrument rating, so hadn’t carefully parsed the regulatory issue of VFR night flight without a visual horizon. But now I have - thanks.olasek said:
I would think we would agree that a non-instrument rated pilot choosing to fly at night without a visible horizon is in general not a good idea, but perhaps you disagree?timwinters said:
I suppose if one has specific training on how to do this by reference to instruments, similar to what is required in other countries for this type of flight, it is safe and reasonable.
But let me ask your opinion another way, would you generally advise VFR only pilots to fly at night without a visible horizon? Or would you suggest additional training?
Please also note that I revised my response while you were responding to note that you misquoted me prior to making an assumption about my knowledge level.
