Korean 777 Down in SFO

[ARFlyer]

Just in on CNN a 777 from Korea is off the runway and on fire in SFO.

 

[Jim Logajan]

This overhead video shows the final position of the jet but also includes a pan to the seawall. Jet ended up left of runway 28 L. Shows where portions of the empennage ended up.

 

[Jim Logajan]

Not the first time an Asian carrier has (in the words of the Captain) "F'ed up" an approach into SFO. JAL 2 did it in 1968 & landed in the bay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_2

Racism. Start with a conclusion and go looking for evidence to support it. A great way to find a pattern where there is none. Landing accidents - only something "Asian" carriers do?

 

[Jim Logajan]

LOL. Asia is a continent not a race. Get your head out of your *** and stop looking for racism where it doesn't exist.

I see - thank you for your correction. So was he pointing out useless non-information or was he indicting a land mass? If neither, what did you think he was trying to say, if not trying to be racist?

 

[Jim Logajan]

Okay ultra-PC granola heads let me just impart this minuscule pearl of wisdom to you

Even "miniscule wisdom" is a bit of a stretch for your claims. But I really like the "ultra-PC granola heads" argument - between that and the attempt to impart "wisdom" sets the proper tone of condescension, eh?

- consider that the concept of CRM ( as it is TRULY intended) does not extend itself well into all cultures. Furthermore, in the interest of aviation safety should we let any specific cultural norm impact negatively the true spirit of CRM ? Or, do you just think the other three pilots were unconscious for the approach ?

I can't argue with the mounds of statistical evidence or reams of studies you've presented showing proof of these assertions. We'll just have to take it as a given that the cause was due to a culture. I think we now need to move on to recommendations, now, right?

So - should Asian airlines "stand down" until they can be re-staffed with American or European pilots? Maybe some pilots from Air France where cultural norms would never cause three pilots to crash an airplane into water?

 

[Jim Logajan]

You're nuts if you think that was either the intent or background on the post. With that, I've deleted my post and I'm done here.

Sigh. All you had to do was explain your intent.

 

[Jim Logajan]

Don't be an ***. He's speaking of patterns and they do exist.

Insult. Followed by an assertion with no factual cites. I simply can't argue with this kind counter-argument.

Anyone who's sat through a mandated multi-cultural studies course knows what he's talking about in generalities.

Why were you mandated to attend a mtuli-cultural studies course?

Also - I don't need to have sat through any such course to have learned the generalities of which you and Bill speak. I stupidly don't assign them the weight you think they deserve.

One would HOPE that in job roles where lives are on the line, some of the cultural detriments to operating as a crew would have been beat out of people, but where one type of crew may work hard not to say anything to the guy flying the aircraft wrong (saving "face", a common Asian cultural trait), we have our own problems with bravado and invulnerability personality types that we beat out of our crews as they work their way up the ladder.

Jumping his butt for making an observation that's got plenty of evidence, just not necessarily IN THE COCKPIT as you desire, is a bit much. Cultures are cultures, and generalities about cultures take decades to change, if they ever do. You don't need a damned $10M study to see them.

Let's make this simple for me, please? Get an estimate for the number of flight hours of "Asian" airlines and the number of their accidents. Do the same for non-Asian airlines. Determine if there is a statistical significance in any differences. If there are, then determine whether there are any cultural differences that would account for them. Shucks - you can discard that last bit if you like.

I guess I really am the *** because I never got the memo on the patterns or statistics. My fault. Guess I'm the one who will wallow in ignorance while the rest of you pity my desire for evidence.

 

[Jim Logajan]

Japan and Korea, and China, Burma, India all have a much more rigid structure involved in hierarchy, personal relationships, and a pro-forma approach to seniority and class distinctions. This is a challenge to CRM in the aviation setting and may have played a part in the crash. If that's considered racist these days, then call me a racist I guess. If I can see and avoid problems that crash an airliner full of people by overcoming the stigma of seniority, or peer intimidation, then I will work toward that.

It will probably surprise the people who think I'm being tiresomely "Politically Correct" that I read - and felt the science sound - in Herrnstein and Murray's infamous book "The Bell Curve". Even after I read the critiques of that book.

 

[Jim Logajan]

Jim -- many of us who work internationally are in fact trained on how different cultures work. The training is done to provide a clear understanding of how different cultures function in the work environment. In fact, my company uses a tool called Globe Smart http://www.globesmart.com/about_globesmart.cfm?content=11 to help us understand how to work internationally. When I went through the training, I was amazed to see how different many cultures worked.

I believe the points people are making here is that this may have played a role in this crash. It is not unusal for certain cultures to obey, yes obey, a certain pecking order.

The details of this crash will come in out in time. But I for one would not be surprised that CRM failed because of it.

That is interesting, but I'm unclear on why that would say anything one way or another about actions in a cockpit where everyone is from the same culture.

Is there really that much historical support for a claim that co-pilots in western cultures have traditionally been more likely than others to "question command authority"? According to the following editorial, it would seem that even western cultures have traditionally frowned on crew members questioning the actions of the PIC (else why would the NTSB stress this failing):"...It is extremely difficult for crewmembers to challenge a captain even when the captain offers a threat to the safety of the flight. The concept of command authority and its inviolate nature, except in the case of incapacitation, has become a practice without exception. As a result, second-in-command pilots react indifferently in circumstances where they should be more assertive. Rather than submitting passively to this concept, second-in-command pilots should be encouraged to affirmatively advise the pilot-in-command that a dangerous situation exists. Such affirmative advice could result in the pilot-in-command's reassessing his actions. The Safety Board has previously stated, and continues to believe, that the second-in-command is an integral part of the operational control of a flight, is a fail-safe factor, and has a share of the duty and responsibility to assure that the flight is operated safely. Therefore, the second-in-command should not passively condone any operation of the aircraft which might compromise safety. "
http://www.airlinesafety.com/editorials/editorial3.htm

I think that's an indictment of a universal mindset, not of either western or eastern cultures. One doesn't need to look to cultural differences. CRM and challenging the captain appears to be a rather recent concept.

On the other hand, there is this document "Culture in the Cockpit - CRM in a Multicultural World":
http://ntl.bts.gov/data/letter_am/jatww5_1engl.PDF

It seems to say that yes, there appear to be cultural differences but that CRM can be adopted to them without cultural reprogramming of the crew. It doesn't actually say whether or not there are correlations between accident statistics and the cultural background of the crews.

 

[Jim Logajan]

You're thinking that sitting in the right seat while watching this show until only seven seconds remained until game over indicates there was no cultural issue? I'd suggest exactly the opposite.

According to the Aviation Herald article linked by Fearless Tower, "all responsibilities are with the training captain." If he is right-seat and not flying, it is hard to see how he would consider himself subservient or be deferential to the pilot in the left seat.

 

[Jim Logajan]

And neither one of these "top of the line" pilots of that airline noticed they were 40 kts too slow on final.

They probably weren't that slow till about ~1/4 mile (~7 seconds?) from the runway.

From the article linked by Timmer in post 364 are these two graphs plotted from radar data taken from flightaware. The black lines are plotted from UAL852, another 777 from Heathrow London that landed 10 minutes prior to AAR214, which is shown in brown lines. As close a comparable as one is likely to get.

Flight 214 was actually faster on final than the other flight till it was under 2 nm from touchdown. They were also higher than the other flight till about the same distance.

I don't know anything about flying jets. But at 1000 ft AGL they were a tad closer(!) and a tad faster(!) than the other jet. At less than 2 nm they had probably less than a minute at those speeds to correct. The airspeed got away from them in the last mile and a half, but their glide slope seems to look good to within a 3/4 mile. In a piston plane I know if I had that happen it would be because I pulled back on the yoke without adding power.

 

[Jim Logajan]

More from another guy who's BTDT w/T-shirt

T-shirt chest size is perhaps XXXL? He doesn't say or opine anything remarkably unique that I haven't already read here or elsewhere, but he certainly thinks highly of himself.

We have destroyed nine widebody aircraft at FedEx in the past fifteen or sixteen years . . . all . . . every one . . . due to poor flying skills. In fact, we crashed a DC-10 at Memphis several years ago with a LCA in the Captain’s seat and a ‘problem pilot’ in the right seat . . . on a beautiful day . . . not a cloud in the sky . . . with a fifteen knot cross wind (the aircraft limit is 30 knots on the beam). They landed in a skid, collapsed the right main gear . . . punctured the left main fuel tank . . . slid down the runway and burned . . . and lived to tell about it.

If this hadn't been copied and pasted from some other source one could ask him what became of the pilots of those aircraft.

...I would be stunned if Ariana Airlines...

The wind was out of the Southwest at eight knots and they were attempting to land on 29 Left . . . so they had a three or four knot headwind component . . .

Couldn't be bothered to get the name of the airline, the runway, or wind vectors correct. Asiana. Runway 28L. Winds:

32 minutes before:
KSFO 061756Z 21006KT 10SM FEW016 18/10 A2982 RMK AO2 SLP097 T01780100 10183 20128 51005

27 minutes after:
KSFO 061856Z 21007KT 170V240 10SM FEW016 18/10 A2982 RMK AO2 SLP098 T01830100

Can't wait for more copy-and-pasted expertise of dubious pedigree to appear here.

 

[Jim Logajan]

Ok, thanks for proof reading an email. I guess with your pedigree you've never misspelled a name or gotten a number off. Sorry the rest of us don't live in your sciolist world.

I know what the majority of what he wrote was way, way over your head, but he does make valuable points for those who understand transport category operations and automation technology.

Players play, nit-pickers pick.

Gentlemen, I was being kind. I already know that Wayne is so self-absorbed that he couldn't be bothered to realize that he copied-and-pasted in his earlier post 411 the same thing that Rex Kramer copied-and-pasted a day earlier in post 385. (Neither of which is the post I was being snarky about.) I saw no reason to mention his odd duplication then, but finally decided to make note of the self-irony on seeing him posting yet another copy-and-paste chest-pounding diatribe outraged at the obvious.

But it is true these things are over my head. For example, I really don't know what to make of the following, though, since it seems to imply the author of the quoted text might not be untainted by the same sins he feels has been committed in this "accident":

"During my twenty-three years with FedEx, I was a Captain Line Check Airman for over fifteen of those years and have performed IOE with literally a couple hundred pilots who were moving into the B-727.
[...]
We have destroyed nine widebody aircraft at FedEx in the past fifteen or sixteen years . . . all . . . every one . . . due to poor flying skills."

 

[Jim Logajan]

Jim,
Not very many people here agree with you.

Agree with what?

 

[Jim Logajan]

On occasion the check airman could be junior, but in Asian culture there is still the pecking order.

Questioning authority (check airman) or questioning seniors is not in their culture.

According to the Aviation Week article you linked to, my summary of who did what is:

1. At 4000 ft the PIC (right seat) noted they were slightly high, so he set vertical speed mode for 1500 fpm.
2. At 1600 ft "the pilots" disconnected autopilot.
3. At 500 ft the PIC noted the PAPI showed below glide slope (3 red, 1 white), so the PIC told the PF (left seat) to pull back on the control wheel.
4. The PIC (at a time not made clear) had set the autothrottle to 137 kts and assumed it would maintain speed.
5. From 500 to 200 ft "the pilots" were attempting to "correct a lateral deviation."
6. At 200 ft PAPI showed even more below glide slope (4 red).
7. The PIC at that point realized the autothrottle had not maintained their speed and established a nose high attitude and attempted to push the throttle forward, but the PF had already just done that.

The relief FO was in the jump seat and the relief captain in the main cabin.

 

[Jim Logajan]

It just goes along with everything else they have thrown out:
'The A/T didn't work!

I can find no report of any of the pilots claiming that. The claim I did find was different: the PIC thought he had the auto throttle set to the desired speed. The location of the fault - the pilot or the machine - wasn't made.

I was blinded by a light......

The reports I've seen said the PF got flash of light but that he also said it did not distract him. He said it was probably the sun off the water.

I ran out of gas! I--I had a flat tire! I didn't have enough money for cab fare! My tux didn't come back from the cleaners! An old friend came in from out of town! Someone stole my car! There was an earthquake! A terrible flood! Locusts! IT WASN'T MY FAULT, I SWEAR TO GOD!!!

I've said this a million times: if you come up short with facts to support your point, don't exaggerate.

 

[Jim Logajan]

OMG you are so wrapped up in your righteous self that you can't recognize a quote from the Blues Brothers???

Eh? I take it you didn't follow the Youtube link I included.

Not only that - I also included what I thought was an obvious self-parody when I wrote the sentence "I've said this a million times...."

I hope my mistake wasn't over-estimating how carefully people read my posts. I always thought posting emoticons to indicate humor was the equivalent of a TV laugh-track. The mark of poor writing.

 

[Jim Logajan]

I'm on a ship right now....YouTube no workie on govt computer....I see nothing.

That would explain the disconnect. It is a video of the Blues Brothers scene you were quoting from. So I did recognize it.

Sorry if I come across as self righteous. It is probably because I always think I am right. After all, why would I post things I think are wrong to a forum anyone in the world can read? :wink2:

 

[Jim Logajan]

It might be helpful if you could see it in real life.

Not sure if it will help, but I found the following video on Youtube that seems to do a pretty good job of showcasing a lot of the displays of a Boeing 777 while it is landing in Paris France. Airspeed appears in several places if you look closely, and there are automated audio notifications at several preprogrammed altitudes:

The last minutes of the video would probably correspond to the period of the approach that went bad for the Asiana flight.

 

[Jim Logajan]

I don't think the video bears resemblance to the Asiana descent other than the gear was down for both.

I should have included a sentence saying that the video shows what appears to be a normal descent on short final. But the main reason I posted it was that it shows airspeed indicators appearing in several places in the cockpit in both digital and analog dial format.