La Revolution...

[SkyHog]

Why isn't this in Spin Zone? Because its not political, and its not argumentative, nor likely to become highly charged - its a mere question of "How much is too much," and "Will we ever do anything?"

This isn't tin foil hat stuff, this is real life stuff now. I think we may have let the government go too far, and because by and large, we are too lazy and complacent to do anything about it, I don't know that we'll ever have liberty again...some examples of our lost freedoms:

1. The 5th Amendment, significantly changed to allow a jury to hear that your choice to not incriminate yourself, may, in fact, be used as proof that you are guilty (http://www.naag.org/right-to-remain-silent-the-supreme-court-clarifies-miranda.php)
2. Same reference as above - simply not answering questions is not, in and of itself, execution of your 5th amendment rights
3. FBI can detain a person and forcefully search their possessions based on grounds as simple as "He was traveling from west to east." - http://www.theatlantic.com/national...-security-state-more-airplane-stories/276018/
4. Refusing to be illegally detained and searched by the Transportation Security Administration is considered a crime, despite having no probable cause or reasonable suspicion aside from the refused search itself - a clear violation of the 4th amendment http://www.infowars.com/mom-found-guilty-by-court-after-refusing-tsa-pat-down-on-daughter/
5. The DOJ secures records of Associated Press phone calls, clearly violating the First Amendment - http://bigstory.ap.org/article/govt-obtains-wide-ap-phone-records-probe
6. The White House uses drone attacks on US Citizens - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/22/white-house-drone-strikes-us-citizens
7. The FAA demands payment for services provided, despite already being paid for those services through taxes: http://www.generalaviationnews.com/...-faa-to-cover-controller-expenses-at-oshkosh/
8. Police repeatedly, across the country, forcefully enter the wrong home, and often kill occupants, animals, and destroy property in those homes....no one does anything to prevent these intrustions - http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bungling-cops-raid-wrong-home-117487
9. Police have too much power - its not to say that all cops are bad, they're not, but the fact that they have so much power allows those that are not bad to abuse that power - significantly reducing their power and authority would curb the effect of bad cops, and not inhibit the ability to protect for the goods ones.

There's a lot more - but they're a bit too politically divisive, so I won't go there. Instead, I ask, what, if anything, can we do about it? When will we ever do anything about it?

 

[Jim Logajan]

There are simple ways to have non-violent revolutions in this nation. They're called elections.

Too true - worked in March 1933 in Germany. Quite a revolution - though not what you'd expect, eh?

Also worked in November 1917 in Russia. Sort of.

Elections in this country have problems similar to those of, say, Iran. The rules are set up to impede the entry of anyone not aligned with the existing power establishment. Just ask any third party candidate for president the kinds of hoops and Catch-22-like rules that have to follow to get on the ballot in many states.

 

[Jim Logajan]

I think it is a mistake to think that the majority aren't able to vote for freedom over self-reward at the expense of others. Consider:

Gallop found that many demographic markers of Tea Party members were pretty much in line with those of the general public:

http://radioviceonline.com/gallup-tea-party-demographics-represent-mainstream-america/

A lot of you may remember that the Tea Party did pretty well in bringing the House under Republican control. I suspect most of them probably campaigned on a promise to not compromise their principles once elected. As far as I can tell, they've been attacked for actually sticking to their promises - politicians are traditionally expected to dicker.

Based on past PoA polls and threads, I believe the membership of PoA tends to have more conservatives and libertarians than liberals or populists. Also no doubt a bunch who consider themselves realists and pragmatists. So I expect there will be much agreement on generalities, but I don't expect much else to result.

Beats me how to take advantage of the slight conservative tilt of the population (not as pronounced as on PoA) to roll back the reach and independence that the regulatory state now enjoys.

 

[Jim Logajan]

To clarify my point.... 50% of the population get some form of government subsidies, hand outs or some other type of free stuff... And keep in mind 48% do not pay a DIME in Federal Income Tax....

I'm a libertarian and vote Libertarian, so it pains me to disagree with some of what you wrote, but I should point out that although many may not pay any income tax, there are no low-income exceptions to paying FICA or Medicare payments. If you have any income at all you have to send some to the government.

Altho they enjoy national security, interstate road system, education, and a huge chunk of other stuff...

Again some disagreement - gas taxes are supposed to pay for roads, so if you can afford the gas to ride on them, you're helping pay for them regardless of your income tax status.

In a lot of places education is paid for by real estate taxes, so if you rent or own a place to keep the rain off your head, one way or another you pay for education regardless of your income tax status.

If you live where there are sales taxes, then again you get taxed regardless of your income tax status.

Other government services ... yeah, a lot of that is paid for by income taxes on the wealthy.

Meanwhile - the general complaint of over-reaching and independent bureaucracy is legitimate - even supreme court justice Roberts has noted the problem:One of the principal authors of the Constitution famously wrote that the “accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, . . . may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny.” The Federalist No. 47, p. 324 (J. Cooke ed. 1961) (J. Madison). Although modern administrative agencies fit most comfortably within the Executive Branch, as a practical matter they exercise legislative power, by promulgating regulations with the force of law; executive power, by policing compliance with those regulations; and judicial power, by adjudicating enforcement actions and imposing sanctions on those found to have violated their rules. The accumulation of these powers in the same hands is not an occasional or isolated exception to the constitutional plan; it is a central feature of modern American government.
The administrative state “wields vast power and touches almost every aspect of daily life.” Free Enterprise Fund v. Public Company Accounting Oversight Bd., 561 U. S. ___, ___ (2010) (slip op., at 18). The Framers could hardly have envisioned today’s “vast and varied federal bureaucracy”and the authority administrative agencies now hold over our economic, social, and political activities. Ibid. “[T]he administrative state with its reams of regulations would leave them rubbing their eyes.” Alden v. Maine, 527 U. S. 706, 807 (1999) (Souter, J., dissenting), quoted in Federal Maritime Comm’n v. South Carolina Ports Authority, 535
U. S. 743, 755 (2002). And the federal bureaucracy continues to grow; in the last 15 years, Congress has launched more than 50 new agencies. Compare Office of the Federal Register, United States Government Manual 1997/1998, with Office of the Federal Register, United States Government Manual 2012. And more are on the way.
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/11-1545_1b7d.pdf

Large, stifling, and enduring bureaucracies are hardly new with modern governments - ancient Egypt, ancient China, the Roman Empire all come to my mind as being noted for having a large bureaucracies. I suspect they often employed the largest contingent of literate people within those realms (outside the religious orders.)

Maybe a few hundred years hence the FAA or its future namesake will crumble under the load of trying to regulate starships using unapproved non-AN bolts on warp drives.

 

[Jim Logajan]

What's your data? I can find a report that says anything I want. Personally, I like this chart:

http://goldtrustfinancial.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/US-National-Debt-Chart-2012_LG-530x800.jpg

Our spending on military(required) surely has gone up some since Reagan but he spent plenty on star wars. Where's the rest of the money going do you think? I know it's not in my pocket.

According to that chart the debt was leveling out by 2001. Amazing what fear of a handful of terrorists can accomplish.

 

[Jim Logajan]

And the lines for 09, 10, 11, and 12? None of that is social spending?

Was there a large increase in social spending versus other expenditures in those years? Or a large decrease in tax receipts? It is a debt chart and all that is immediately evident from it alone is that the deficiit was nearing zero (slope of the debt nearing horizontal) when the deficit increased around 2001.