A small amount more accountability for the TSA

Yes, no doubt it will now be used to justify even more spending and training in the service of this security theater.
 
Or better solution, just eliminate this government agency and let the airlines figure out what is actually needed.
 
NoHeat said:
That's pretty much what we had before 9/11. An airport's biggest airline basically paid for the airport's security back then, and generally paid as little as it could, with pretty much nil training. And look where that got us.

Today's security theater is nothing to cheer. But it could be worse.
Yes, I guess it could always be worse. Prior to 2001, the level of airline security was dictated by the FAA, who mandated metal detectors and the ridiculous questions about your baggage. The FAA began mandating metal detectors in January 1973, about 3 years after hijackings had peaked in 1969.

What I advocate is true privatization. Airlines are fully responsible for liability (they are not now) and security as they and their insurance companies deem appropriate. More details at http://realairlinesecurity.org.
 
mryan75 said:
Which worked so well on 9/11.
As noted in post #7 above, we did not have a privatized security system in which the airlines were responsible for determining security policies prior to 2001, not since 1973, when the FAA began dictating what security had to be in place. Actually I suppose one could go even further back in terms of FAA interference with what the private sector would likely want to use. In 1963, the FAA banned the carriage of firearms on aircraft. So it was sort of that point that they began to seriously dictate what the security status of passengers on aircraft would be.

So I suppose one could argue that Federal government's security regulations failed to provide adequate security in 2001.
 
mryan75 said:
Prior to 2001, did the FAA state that airlines could this much security and absolutely not one bit more?
Good question. I don't know if they required precisely certain procedures. It appears from a brief search that the FAA mandated a set of specific items, including the magnetometers. One would really have to go read the regulations to know.

Of course, when the Federal government takes over a function it tends to disincentivized the market to provide any other solutions. People figure, well we are doing what they say we have to and not think any further about it.

This disconnect between making the money from flying planes and the responsibility for the damage they may cause is even larger today. The airlines are now insulated even further from liability for the use of their planes as weapons or accidents with the liability limits which were put in place in 2001.

There are those who would argue that the attacks on Sept 11 2001 were as successful as they were because of not only the failures in the FAA mandated security procedures, but in addition the failure of various government investigative agencies to coordinate their information to foil the attackers.

Of course, hindsight is always 20/20. I tend to think it is better to recognize that as an exceptional attack that cannot be repeated. We should focus the resources available to try and ensure the safety of the traveling public on things that might actually help, rather than the ridiculous security theater of the TSA.
 
James331 said:
Thing is that’s the exception not the rule, any settlement should first come out of the cops personal assets.
Yes, lot's of examples of LEOs literally getting away with killing people. Consider the Brailsford case in Mesa -- after shooting Daniel Shaver he was recently rehired briefly so that he could be eligible for a pension!
 
Unit74 said:
How many professions can you name that if you screw up or make a bad choice once, which was a snap decision under stress, you will end up in jail, crucified in the media and never had a decent job again? How many firefighters do you know that have to put on a bullet proof vest and kiss their spouse goodbye, perhaps for the last time, every time they go to work?
While this is true, that must just not actually be an issue very often. Being an LEO is fairly far down on the list of dangerous professions. I believe it is actually now SAFER to be a police officer than at most times in the past.

That is consistent, from a balance of force perspective, with an increase in the number of shootings of citizens by police as well. As you bias LEOs through equipment and training to protect themselves, rather than citizens, they are going to shoot more citizens while being hurt themselves less frequently.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
I’d be OK keeping the hardened cockpit doors, as that was an effective and cost appropriate solution.
I've wondered about even the doors sometimes though. For example, was the GermanWings crash enabled partly by other people not being able to get back into a locked and hardened cockpit? What about MH370?

I believe the doors also weigh more and so cost something in fuel I assume. Basically you won't be able to execute an attack like those in September 2001 anymore because the passengers and crew will attack you, hardened doors or not. Not sure that tradeoff has been considered well enough to know.
 
Unit74 said:
As a side note, I found this article rather revealing. Use of force is up in DC by 20%. Aghast....public outrage. Yet crime is down, officer assaults down and fatal encounters significantly reduced from police shooting. Hmm.... Use of force SOONER leads to less violent force LATER and a reduction in trigger pulls from the cops?
Of course the residents of DC are largely disarmed and unable to defend themselves.
 
Unit74 said:
The numbers who remember 9/11............. Are getting smaller and smaller. In an ever pacifist-evolving society thanks to the school systems, I fear the next attack will be met with no resistance from the youngest of our able-bodied travelers; someone who has never had to defend themselves.... won't.
There is a certain truth in this. Fewer people probably know how to defend themselves now. Look at all the people in the Pulse night club shooting who used their phones to take videos of the attack, rather than throwing bottles and their phones at the attacker. That guy should have been being hit in the head by a virtual rain of bottles, furniture etc.
 
mryan75 said:
Which is another way of saying that private airlines, given responsibility for airport security, do the absolute minimum required. Which is why airport security should not be the purview of the airlines, but rather government.
I think there is another alternative than the two which appear to be considered there. Make airlines responsible for the consequences of their decisions, which they aren’t now.

They and their insurance companies will then decide how they want to balance the costs of increased security measures against the risks. The actual costs and risks in a real world situation are only known with a certain level of accuracy and it is often quite difficult to judge. When the parties making the decision are economically responsible, they are incentivized to make the best decision possible. And if they fail, they pay the price and perhaps go out of business.

Government regulators, by contrast, only have a set of incentives which are disconnected from the actual costs to everyone else of their decisions. While a feature perhaps to some, this does not tend generally to result in good outcomes. See the book Bureaucracy by von Mises for a long discussion of this. Link previously provided. It is a free download.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
It is my experience that any time security reform is discussed and someone rebuts those ideas with the initial argument of “well 9-11” I routinely find the individual has not taken the time to become informed about what actually happened that day regarding security failures.
This is exactly what TSA agents say as the justification for their job. It must be in their training manuals.
 
mryan75 said:
That's a legitimate argument, but I disagree. I like the fact that the institution in charge of airport security has one motivation, which is security.
But concretely in terms of regulation, what standard do you think the government should use to balance financial priorities. Resources are finite, even for the government, so regulators will have to choose between a stricter standard of security and cost. They can't actually operate assuming the resources are infinite, because they are not. What sort of standards should they use?

For example, with the TSA, it has been estimated that if the government wants to spend money to save lives, the TSA is the wrong way to do it, by about a factor of 100. See the book "Terror, Security, and Money" which goes into this in great detail. So if there are more effective ways to spend finite money to save lives, shouldn't the government choose those over the TSA?

It is a serious issue because the TSA spends about $8.1 Bln per year on security theater which does little to nothing to actually improve the safety of the traveling public.

BTW, I will add that I understand the desire to achieve good security and safety. It is an admirable goal. But I think if we care about saving lives, the TSA is really the wrong way to approach this.
 
mryan75 said:
I'll take TSA, thanks.
In a private system, no-one would stop you from making that sort of choice. You would be free to choose whichever airline offered you the type of security you want. And you would be free to pay the price, in terms of money and inconvenience for that. Even as a professional airline pilot, if you thought the procedures were inadequate you could first complain to your airline and then find another job if you wanted.

In a private system, however, you would not be able to force your choice on everyone else.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I'm sure all that could have been "fixed" without creating the TSA. In fact, KSFO police implements the TSA security program. Not the TSA.
https://www.flysfo.com/about-sfo/safety-security
KACY, KFSD, KSEA, KSFB and KMCI are some of the other airports that don't use the TSA for screening.
Yes, those are part of the Screening Partnership Program. That is the first step toward privatization as recommended at http://realairlinesecurity.org. It seems to improve customer responsiveness of the screeners, though they still have to screen to standards specified by the TSA.

Of course the union representing TSA employees is completely opposed to this sort of thing.
 
mryan75 said:
First, I didn't say the government could spend an infinite amount of money.
...
Let's face it: probably the biggest hinderance to our providing truly exceptional security cannot be circumvented. It's called the Constitution. We simply can't do much of what El Al does.
I agree there is also an important tradeoff between security and freedom to be considered. But let's leave that more political item alone for a minute.

So would you agree that if resources are finite, and what the book "Terror, Security and Money" says is true, namely that there are 100X more effective ways to spend the money we spend on the TSA to save lives, would you then agree that the government should stop spending it on the TSA and focus on those other ways to save lives?

Seems to me that a 100X difference strongly suggests it is fairly irresponsible of the government to spend money on the TSA. One could deny that what the book maintains is true, a different question, but my question here is what if it is true.
 
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