Commercial v. Instrument Training

[JeffDG]

OK, this one's going to be a bit strange.

First, I'm an alien. As such, I require approval from our good friends at the TSA in order to receive training for my initial (done), Instrument Rating or multi-engine rating. I don't need clearance for Commercial.

Second, it's a huge PITA if you want to work with multiple instructors. Each of them needs to be "approved" as a separate training request, and each request costs $150.

So...

Could I do most of my instrument training under 61.129(a)(3)(i), technically pursuing my commercial ticket, then once I've built a rapore with a CFII, get the TSA clearance for the Long IFR XC and 3 hours in last 60 days?

 

[Jim Logajan]

The "discovery flight" in this case is not a discovery flight as defined in that regulation, and thus not exempt from the process.

For the purpose of evaluating instructors rather than logging time, the AOPA disagrees with your claim based on correspondence they say they have had with the TSA. Per their FAQ on http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources...ight-Training-Citizenship-Validation-Rule/FAQ:

Are introductory or "discovery" flights exempt from the requirements of the TSA rule?
Yes. TSA has stated through correspondence with AOPA that introductory, discovery or demonstration flights are exempt from the requirements of the TSA rule. However, AOPA suggests that you not log the flight time in a logbook until the CFI can verify citizenship. Click here to print a first flight certificate.


What is the definition of flight training as it pertains to this rule for the purposes of needing to undergo citizenship verification?
The TSA has further interpreted the definition of " flight training "for aircraft with a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 pounds or less to only apply to training for a recreational pilot, sport pilot, or private pilot certificate; multiengine rating (at any certificate level — i.e., does not apply to MEI); or instrument rating (does not include recurrent training).


Do the requirements for citizenship verification apply for flight reviews, aircraft checkouts, or instrument proficiency checks?
No, TSA has interpreted the definition of " recurrent training" to NOT include any flight review, proficiency check, or other check required by 14 CFR § 61.57 or § 61.58 whose purpose is to review rules, maneuvers, or procedures, or to demonstrate a pilot's existing skills. The TSA has further interpreted the definition of "flight training" for aircraft with a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 pounds or less to only apply to training for a recreational pilot, sport pilot, or private pilot certificate; multiengine rating (at any certificate level — i.e., does not apply to MEI); or instrument rating (does not include recurrent training).

 

[Jim Logajan]

The concept of the "Discovery Flight" is well established in the industry as flights for nonpilots considering taking flying lessons leading to an initial pilot rating. Instrument training flights taken to decide if you like an instructor or not are not and never have been called "discovery flights" by anyone in the industry. If you want to make up your own definition of that term to include such flights, mighty fine, but don't delude yourself or anyone else into thinking TSA has ever said such a flight falls within that term.

A CFI who provides a discovery flight sees only a person; they initially have no idea what, if any, credentials the person they are taking up may already hold. While the CFI may ask about prior credentials, the answer provided could not change an advertised discovery flight into something else. It still is what it was.

What matters to the CFI is that they are conducting a discovery flight from their prespective. The whole point of the TSA exemption is to allow the CFI to bypass the usual paperwork. After all, I presume any violation would be on the CFI, not the customer.

 

[Jim Logajan]

No, what matters is that they are conducting a discovery flight from TSA's perspective, since it's TSA's regulation. What you or I or any other instructor thinks really doesn't matter.
Exactly why I would not have any part of the proposed operation -- ain't worth my ticket.

If you do discovery flights, then by your response you seem to imply that you are requiring everyone you take up to first divulge both their nationality and any licenses they may hold.

Your claims basically nullify, and are contrary to, the whole point of the TSA exemption.

 

[Jim Logajan]

It what way is it not clear?!?!?? Even "The Grinch" could see the satire in:

Fix
That
For
You


Just offering a hint that saves you a few keystrokes.

Just FYI, I never cared for "FTFY" attempts at humor. No way to stop its use, but this is as good a place as any to register my opinion of it.