Finger (123.4) and Fingers (123.45)

[weirdjim]

Just because we have a 760 channel radio in the airplane does NOT mean that we are licensed/legal to use all of them. Try chatting on 121.5 some day and see how long THAT lasts. Or go to San Diego and pass the time of day on 118.3 and see what kind of trouble that gets you into.

There are half a dozen restricted frequencies that manufacturers of aircraft and major aircraft components are assigned as "test" frequencies. These frequencies are NOT assigned to any other service (including air-to-air and air-to-ground), and they are a crystal ***** to apply for.

In general, it takes about a year to get approved, and you have to go through a FCC frequency coordinator that plots your geographic location and figures out what other manufacturers you may potentially interfere with when you do your testing.

You are extremely limited in power and you have to give all other licensed stations within a few hundred mile radius notice well in advance when and where you will be doing your testing. You do NOT have a choice as to what frequencies you are assigned and you take what you are assigned.

Now, I've gone through all the hoops, paid a fair chunk of "administrative fees", gone through the restrictions and I'm all set for testing. I'm assigned on my license 123.4 and 123.45. That wasn't my choice, but my assignment.

We've got engineer time, pilot time, aircraft time, and a few other times we are paying for on the line. We get three-quarters of the way into the test and Billy Bob and Old Joe come on the frequency chattering about the waitress' knobs over at Mabel's Airport Cafe.

Let me be blunt. With the implementation of ADSB, I can pretty well get ATC to give me your N-Number and I can simply turn it over to both the FAA and the FCC for enforcement. Just for information, every time you punch the transmit button is a separate offense and the fine is $10k and a year in the slammer for each punch.

I'm a pilot. I've been one since 1963. I'm a flight instructor, commercial pilot, A&P/IA, 182A driver, and I have absolutely no interest in raising he!! with my colleagues. But I am also an airplane parts manufacturer that loses hundreds of dollars every time you destroy one of my tests.

So I'm giving fair warning. At some point in time I'm going to have to turn you in for prosecution. I do not CHOOSE to do this, but I also do not choose to let you violate the FAA/FCC Regulations. I wouldn't let my student do it and I won't let you do it.

Thanks for your consideration.

Jim

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Now, I've gone through all the hoops, paid a fair chunk of "administrative fees", gone through the restrictions and I'm all set for testing. I'm assigned on my license 123.4 and 123.45. That wasn't my choice, but my assignment.

Not saying you’re wrong to report or excusing others, but just as a practical matter, given the historical popularity of fingers as a chat frequency, I do wonder if it might be more cost effective in terms of use of your time to petition the FAA for a different frequency assignment(s) ?

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Even a thread here.... https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/air-to-air-chat-frequencies.73106/

The OP was in that thread threatening to have people cited.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

How does a non test aircraft talking on fingers blow a thousand dollar test?

I would also be curious to hear from the OP why this ends up costing so much money. I imagine a good explanation of that might tend to induce more cooperation.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

You all have been asking about calculations of losses.

...

And then start figuring out instead of an antenna how you do this for something as complex and difficult to measure as a com or nav radio.

Nice explanation - thanks. I am concerned that it might be more cost effective to work on getting the other frequency assignment or maybe local outreach also. Maybe you are doing those things as well. It just seems like most of the abusers are likely not on PoA.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

The FAA does not assign the frequencies. The FCC does, and quite frankly, they couldn't care less about how to re-assign frequencies. They did their work, they broke the band up into what they saw as reasonable, and if you think the FAA doesn't care about "petitions", you ought to work with the FCC for a while.

Here’s another idea. Could you set up another company and do a separate petition for another frequency? Or would they just mix that?

Completely different approach. Do you know your Senators or local Representatives and have donated to their campaign?

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

What the hell is WRONG with you?

I think your rude response here to some suggestions illustrates why people may have little sympathy or desire to help with your plight.

Frankly that attitude was sort of present as an undertone in your first post - which is why I suggest you received some mildly hostile responses.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Also, I am curious now. Which company is @weirdjim involved with? Oh I see it is RST Engineering.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Curious. So if a person follows all the rules and requirements mandated to him for years, yet others who do not follow the rules and requirements mandated to them for years, and that original person cops an attitude (rude) about those other individuals, how do you quantify his wish not to be nice about it or accept having to change his ways for no plausible reason? And in a similar discussion, how is this discussion any different than your stance on "coercive lock downs due to COVID" any different?

Reasonable question. Here he is illustrating a rude attitude and calling names toward those who are seeking to make positive suggestions to try and help him. I think that is rather a different situation from perhaps having a bad attitude toward those who are breaking the rules or those who are insulting a speaker in a discussion.

For the record, as I had expressed several times in my posts above, I think he certainly is justified in being annoyed and wanting to report these people. I just don't think that is likely to get him much of anywhere given the long standing use of fingers for chats. It seems like it was a bad idea of the FCC to assign that as a test frequency and he has definitely gotten the raw end of that deal.

But effectively yelling at and accusing people who are trying to make suggestions to help is unlikely to either get you anywhere or make you look good in front of others who might want to help. (This is particularly true when it is clear from the post that you did not bother to actually consider the suggestions and instead reacted in a defensive way to a misperception of those suggestions.)

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

People who don't have a clue (like you) who come on here offering solutions that aren't even close to viable because you have no CLUE what the problem is.

More personal attacks. A very rude, belligerent and bad attitude. I'm sure that helps sales a lot. I will certainly be avoiding any purchases from RST Engineering and will make the same recommendation to others.

Please ignore me if you don't like what I have to politely say. At least I am polite -- unlike the OP here.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

I'm out of here. ... I was sort of hoping we could start an intelligent conversation about the problem but it has disintegrated into the usual name-calling after about three days.

IIRC, you were the one who started the name calling.

Cross the ADSB by the beam and guess what?

I am shaking in my boots.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Not quite. I read the suggestions. Regardless how Jim "interacts" with people on PoA, simply suggesting he needs to change his ways from established rules and regulations to appease those who violate those same rules and regulations shows a similar misperception on how those rules work.

Well, let's consider those suggestions in more detail shall we and perhaps you can enlighten me on how they involve a mis-perception of the governmental rules. I am not an expert by any means on FAA or FCC avionics regulations.

Suggestion 1. Setup another company and apply for a new frequency. Unlike what Jim said, this could be as simple as setting up a small LLC to officially perform the testing for the other company. As I noted, this might not work and be kicked out. But perhaps every legitimate company has a right to apply and receive an assignment -- I actually don't know but it seems plausible that a government bureaucracy might treat it that way.

Suggestion 2. Contact your Senator or Representative. This would be at a Federal level, which Jim apparently did not consider. They will often do small favors for constituents, such as having a staffer call the FCC and ask if a frequency re-assignment might be possible. Maybe that won't work, I really don't know, but again seems plausible.

In any case, even if these suggestions are naive, I see no reason to be rude and attack people about it, particularly on public fora where we aren't interacting personally. I think that has always been my position and I try assiduously to avoid doing so.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

I'd do the tests late at night or real early in the morning. Everyone knows zipper heads don't like to get up early in the morning. Time to think outside of the box here, having a coronary because people can't follow the rules won't solve anything.

Those are good ideas and thinking outside the box might help him. But it appears that @weirdjim is too determined to blow his stack and be angry, because he is entitled to use those frequencies per regulation, to bother to consider alternatives.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

I'd cut him some slack Peter,

In general, you know, I try to do that and provide people with some little reminders that there is no reason to be rude. But it sort of appears this may be a personality trait because it keeps coming back and he has not apologized for his obvious uncalled for rudeness. And was sort of present in the thread from a few years back as well.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Please, make your recommendations as you see fit.

Gosh, I thought you were out of here. Sorry to see such a rude person returning to the discussion.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

I think this may be a common characteristic amongst people who own businesses and are relatively isolated. I used to have a client when I did consulting who would just yell and scream about any little thing that was wrong. He was the owner of a small company and used to getting his way. At first I found it upsetting, but then I realized he was paying me rather good money to sit and listen to these rants, and then more good money afterward to actually try and fix what he was complaining about. So I just watched the meter ring up in my mind. That doesn't happen here so I am a bit more picky about politeness.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Nauga,
who has decided to use your N-number. You should apply for a new one.

You know, that might be the practical thing to do if all sorts of people were constantly stealing your N number for some reason and others had historically done so and complaining and ranting about it over 40 years hadn't helped you.

But hey, some people just want to rant!

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Simple. You are requiring someone who has followed the FCC rule given to him to CHANGE the way he does something because others choose NOT to follow the FCC rules given to them. For another example see post 85 for further clarification. But just to clarify, if someone were to move into your house and refused to leave your "practical" solution would be to give them your house and move to another house at your expense?

I think that is a bit of a straw man fallacy. I never suggested that he should be required to change the way he does something to accommodate others who don't follow the rules. Why keep focusing on that straw man?

Also, can you please clarify how my particular suggestions were misperceiving the FAA or FCC rules that apply. I just don't see that and you really don't address that in your response after having made that assertion.

I think your hypothetical is so unrelated to the present example as to be fairly meaningless in this context. My house is on property that I acquired from the prior owner and did a title search on to make sure the title was good. I am home much of every day and using it every day. If any squatters are attempting to use it, I will notice and ask them to leave, and if that fails, I will have the police eject them fairly quickly.

Jim's assignment was per the rules by the FCC but was to a frequency which has long been used by others for chatting. Jim is perhaps using his assignment how often -- every few months? Does he notice and report at other times when people are chatting on fingers?

All of these factors will impact how practical it is to try a hard enforcement approach. In the case of your house, that works pretty well. In the case of an infrequent use of an otherwise commonly used chat frequency, likely not.

But look, none of that is justification for people to break the regulations. If you will read my posts, I was merely trying to suggest some practical ways to solve the problem. As were many others here.

But this does being to verge onto a topic closer to my heart politically. And this will be thread drift, and onto a somewhat political subject, but one that is still aviation related! In some sense, the problem here is created by a government bureaucracy doing the job of allocating the frequencies. Such bureaucracies are notoriously unresponsive to user or consumer demand. Perhaps if the frequency spectrum had been divvied up in a free market, one could buy a not oft used and low value frequency for not too much money for such testing and avoid these problems.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

I, for one, think @weirdjim has actually been too nice, particularly with those who seem to have anti-authority issues (Isn’t that one of those hazardous behaviours that we are warned about?)

I disagree. There is no reason to be rude and make accusations about people you actually know nothing about on social media posts. It is a violation of the rules here as it amounts to personal attacks. Certainly not amongst the worst we see on PoA, but it is a set of personal attacks nonetheless.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

I took Jim’s original post not to be a plea for wild, off-the-wall solution proposals by people who don’t have a _clue_ as to what they are talking about. It seemed to me more of an educational, post trying to point out that unthinking, ignorant, people who are incorrectly using these frequencies as their personal chat line are both breaking the rules and also causing financial hardship for people and companies who are required to follow those rules.

That may have been his original intent. But it had a sort of tone which many interpreted in an hostile manner and he certainly received some hostile responses. That tends to happen when you come across with threats.

I also doubt that complaining about it in this way on PoA is likely to have much positive effect. Polite local outreach might work better. Are there many people on PoA who are using fingers in his neighborhood. I don't think I have ever listened to that frequency, but will likely do so on my next flight just to see what is going on there in my neck of the woods.

Is there possibly a little bit of a Streisand effect here? The more he rants and raves, the more attention will be brought to the use of the fingers frequencies and the more likely it will become that the rule breakers will be using it during one of his tests? Perhaps too many mere chances there to really have such an effect, but is is an interesting possibility to consider.