Yes lasers are dangerous to shine at aircraft - but ...

[rotorwrench]

Indeed, apparently they carry glasses to protect from this.

Depends on operator. But it is not that common to have laser protection glasses or visors in use. If the crews are on NVG like a number of night helicopter ops the NVG provide the protection provided the beam doesn't hit the eye directly behind the tubes. But it has happened. Also one of the cons on laser glasses/visors is it can skew/filter certain colors used in existing airport nav aides like approach lites, etc. However, its my understanding the biggest impact of the laser is not direct eye hits but flashing the cockpit and degrading their night vision and the associated distraction during a "critical" phase of flight.

 

[rotorwrench]

2 years in the pen on a laser rap. Don't be that guy.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdwi/pr/minnesota-man-sentenced-2-years-aiming-laser-aircraft

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Seems the defendants prior criminal record played a role in sentencing.


Otherwise 2 years for something which caused no permanent injury seems excessive to me. Maybe having to pay for the cost of the go-around would be a more suitable punishment for someone else doing this.


In any case, clearly a bad idea to point these lasers at aircraft.

 

[rotorwrench]

Otherwise 2 years for something which caused no permanent injury seems excessive to me.

I don't. I think 9000+ lasers hits on aircraft per year is excessive and until they can offer a level of deterrence to those numbers I believe anyone caught should be given the maximum and carted out in public. Maybe then people will get the idea not to do it. Unfortunately a majority of the perpetrators never get caught.. Hopefully until we can reduce those numbers you'll never be a victim to a laser hit. I know several pilots who have with one who almost bought it due to a laser strike. Not a fun deal no matter how trivial you think it might be.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

In general, draconian punishments don't work very well to deter crime. Certainty of punishment is much more likely to succeed.

But are the agencies really willing to pay the price required to make it more certain you get caught? Otherwise, more education and public outreach.

The guy in that case had a history of shining bright lights at people in bad ways so I don't imagine education will work for him.

It would be interesting to see numbers on how many people who do this are just messing around and don't think it will hurt anything. That perception needs to change.

 

[RandomDroneGuy]

2 years in the pen on a laser rap. Don't be that guy.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdwi/pr/minnesota-man-sentenced-2-years-aiming-laser-aircraft

"Hey, waddya in for?"

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

"Hey, waddya in for?"

Well, at least it is likely to be easy time in the Federal campus like prison.

 

[RandomDroneGuy]

In general, draconian punishments don't work very well to deter crime. Certainty of punishment is much more likely to succeed.

But are the agencies really willing to pay the price required to make it more certain you get caught? Otherwise, more education and public outreach.

The guy in that case had a history of shining bright lights at people in bad ways so I don't imagine education will work for him.

It would be interesting to see numbers on how many people who do this are just messing around and don't think it will hurt anything. That perception needs to change.

Maybe equip airliners with AGM's and aim them at the lasers? Instead of an explosive charge fill them with blue dye so the cops can just look for the blue guy and arrest him.

 

[Jim Logajan]

Maybe equip airliners with AGM's and aim them at the lasers? Instead of an explosive charge fill them with blue dye so the cops can just look for the blue guy and arrest him.

Blue Man Group hardest hit.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

So I was trying to think more about similar situations I might have been in. And it occurred to me that a situation at the Rocks State Park in Maryland might be analogous.

This is a big rock face with some good climbing on it. The top is basically a popular public park. So there are all sorts of tourists up there who think it is fun to throw cups and rocks over the side of the cliff. Of course this is a rather serious potential hazard to the climbers below. They have signs up - but people still do it.

When this would happen those of us below would become rather angered and often yell up at them. Sometimes a climber near the top would even go up there and try to explain in no uncertain terms the danger presented. Fortunately, I never heard of anyone actually being hurt, but it was quite scary at times.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Hmm. 6 months with no actual problems or injuries…

Ohio Men Sentenced for Targeting Ohio State Highway Patrol Pilots with Laser and LED Spotlight

Two Ohio men faced sentencing for their involvement in targeting an Ohio State Highway Patrol (OSHP) helicopter with a laser and LED spotlight, actions classified as a federal offense. Jason McCloskey, aged 54, pleaded guilty

www.airguide.info

 

[rotorwrench]

Hmm. 6 months with no actual problems or injuries…

Curious. Have you ever experienced a laser incident in flight at night?
From my experience and perspective in the industry, I think 6 months is too short.
So, what would be an acceptable problem or injury caused by an aircraft laser hit to warrant a 6 month sentence for hitting an aircraft with a laser?
And just for note, the number of reported aircraft laser hits has increased to 13,000+ per year since you started this thread last year. Up from 9000+. Same as with the numbers of drone/aircraft interactions.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Curious. Have you ever experienced a laser incident in flight at night?
From my experience and perspective in the industry, I think 6 months is too short.
So, what would be an acceptable problem or injury caused by an aircraft laser hit to warrant a 6 month sentence for hitting an aircraft with a laser?
And just for note, the number of reported aircraft laser hits has increased to 13,000+ per year since you started this thread last year. Up from 9000+. Same as with the numbers of drone/aircraft interactions.

No I have not. The closest thing I can think of personally is people throwing things over the edge of a cliff while you are climbing. Quite angering and potentially dangerous. But then one is engaged in a sport where things do occasionally come falling down the cliff.

To warrant 6 months in jail on a first offense? I am trying to think of other bad behaviors that will get you that and just frankly don’t hang around with criminals so don’t have much to base it on. I would think any sort of permanent moderate personal injury (thus not something as small as a permanent scar from a small cut), any sort of permanent impairment of vision, or property damage over $5000. Though in the case of property damage I think restitution is more important.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

The problem I see with severe punishment is that I believe generally certainty of punishment is a better deterrent than severity,

So the question is - why do people do this? Is there a study about this out there?

I have occasionally pointed lasers at things for amusement. It is sort of fun to see how far away you can hit something. Is that what these people are doing - just messing around? Or is it more nefarious - like they are trying to mess with the police?

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Some articles of interest. Though nothing that I find on frequency and motivations. I suspect understanding the latter may be the best way to design a program to reduce this. I think it will only become more common as these devices become more common and powerful.

Effects of malicious ocular laser exposure in commercial airline pilots - PubMed

Our study revealed that laser strikes on aircraft did not result in permanent visual functional or structural deficits. However, laser strikes cause immediate visual effects, including glare, flash blindness, and ocular irritation that can interfere with a pilot's visual function. Given the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26735237/ (this one actually documents an apparently permanent injury to a pilot)

Non-Therapeutic Laser Retinal Injury - PubMed

As non-therapeutic laser eye injuries increase in frequency, there is a greater need for public health, policy, diagnosis, and treatment of these types of injuries.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[rotorwrench]

No I have not.

Perhaps search out some people who have and explain your side to them and see what they say. I know 4 people who were personally affected by laser strikes in flight with one out of work for an extended time to heal his vision and build confidence to fly at night again. Those individuals would definitely prefer to see a public whipping or hanging of the perpetrator vs 6 month jail time. Maybe that would get the word out not to point lasers at aircraft?

To warrant 6 months in jail on a first offense? I am trying to think of other bad behaviors that will get you that

A number “aggravated” offenses will get you 6+ months in the pokey. The issue is intent. Now if someone were to accidently—key word—hit an aircraft one time (another key item) then I would think 6 months may be a bit excessive. However, most intently point lasers at aircraft multiple times which they should be held accountable to the full extent of the law.

I would think any sort of permanent moderate personal injury

Having known and assisted individuals who have been injured, some permanently, by other negligent individuals I do not agree. A number of rules, regulations, and laws are implemented to prevent or mitigate personal injury and damage and to not define it. As the old saying goes, “if you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime.”

The problem I see with severe punishment is that I believe generally certainty of punishment is a better deterrent than severity,

The problem with laser strikes as with drone close-calls is it is very difficult to almost impossible to catch the individuals who commit the offense. Ironically, the incidents with the highest arrest rate involve law enforcement aircraft as they have the onboard equipment and communications to track and catch the individuals. However, the remaining 95+% of people never get caught. But hopefully technology will triumph soon and give the authorities the ability to track both drones and lasers when they are used unlawfully.

So the question is - why do people do this? Is there a study about this out there?

Because they are a few sandwiches short of a picnic. And society in general no longer holds personal responsibility in high esteem with some people actually giving public reasons why people should not be held personally responsible for their actions.
So the question remains would you intently point a laser at an aircraft? If not, why?

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

…Maybe that would get the word out not to point lasers at aircraft?

The problem with laser strikes as with drone close-calls is it is very difficult to almost impossible to catch the individuals who commit the offense. Ironically, the incidents with the highest arrest rate involve law enforcement aircraft as they have the onboard equipment and communications to track and catch the individuals. However, the remaining 95+% of people never get caught. But hopefully technology will triumph soon and give the authorities the ability to track both drones and lasers when they are used unlawfully.

Because they are a few sandwiches short of a picnic. And society in general no longer holds personal responsibility in high esteem with some people actually giving public reasons why people should not be held personally responsible for their actions.
So the question remains would you intently point a laser at an aircraft? If not, why?

I certainly would never point one at an aircraft. That is mostly because I know it could seriously mess up the flight deck.

Most people don’t want to seriously hurt others. But about 5% are sociopaths who do and we need some form of organized self defense to protect the rest of us from them.

So how to best address laser strikes on airplanes? I think the best approach is to first study who is doing this and why.

If it is mostly malicious bad actors, that is one thing. But I suspect it is mostly just people messing around who don’t realize the problems it causes. Likely younger males who have a tendency to do this sort of thing.

To deal with that it seems like more public education is needed. Do all current lasers above a certain power have in their warnings not to point them at aircraft and why?

Beyond that I suspect the group affected, commercial pilots, should work on a public education campaign. The airlines also have a serious interest in this and perhaps should be chipping in.

I am honestly surprised at how little is known about this given the increasing frequency. Unfortunately it seems like somehow the pilots are not yet sufficiently motivated to do more.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Being a researcher I of course think - how could one study this?

@rotorwrench you might know and be interested. Is there a database of reported and/or prosecuted incidents one can access?

 

[rotorwrench]

I think the best approach is to first study who is doing this and why.

I think those demographics are generally already known. So I don’t think there is a special group of individuals predisposed to only point a laser at an aircraft. Even a percentage of your average GA pilot/owners will break rules, in general, even though they know it is wrong and illegal to do so.
So just as people have known for eons it is bad to drink and drive, we still have 10s of 1000s of people killed every year due to drunk driving. I’ll bet 10 to 1 you’ll find similar attitudes on people who point lasers at aircraft and are potential prime candidates for a Darwin Award.

Do all current lasers above a certain power have in their warnings not to point them at aircraft and why?

That’s been an ongoing issue on the labeling. Here’s one of the latest examples:
https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-ur...s-add-warning-label-not-shine-lasers-aircraft

Beyond that I suspect the group affected, commercial pilots, should work on a public education campaign. The airlines also have a serious interest in this and perhaps should be chipping in.

Except I don’t think the victims of a crime should be the ones required to educate the perpetrators of the crime. However, the dangers of lasers and aircraft have been all over social media and other venues for a number of years.
So as mentioned above sometimes you just can’t fix stupid. Perhaps give your local and federal representatives a call and ask why they have not funded more public education on the effects of lasers on aircraft? That is where the education movement should start.

Is there a database of reported and/or prosecuted incidents one can access?

The federal enforcement side info can be a bit of a pain to look for until it reaches the NTSB or Appeal levels which have dedicated sites. Any local enforcement of laser laws I wouldn't know about. But the 1st link below is a GAO Report that may give you insight on the issue and a possible path to follow. The second link is the FAA laser reports page.
GAO: FAA Should Strengthen Efforts to Address the Illegal Practice of Intentionally Aiming Lasers at Aircraft
FAA Laser Incident Page

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Except I don’t think the victims of a crime should be the ones required to educate the perpetrators of the crime. However, the dangers of lasers and aircraft have been all over social media and other venues for a number of years.
So as mentioned above sometimes you just can’t fix stupid. Perhaps give your local and federal representatives a call and ask why they have not funded more public education on the effects of lasers on aircraft? That is where the education movement should start.

I am just thinking that if people actually want to fix the problem. A similar situation applied to drunk driving. Yes, it was illegal for a long time but what really raised awareness of how stupid this was was massive public outreach by groups like MADD combined with toughening the laws.

It has been quite a while since I looked into it, but I believe it is felt that the public awareness campaigns made the most difference. Many of those people who started MADD were related to victims.

The downside generally to advocating draconian sentences to fix a problem is of course that it leads in the direction of a more and more totalitarian society. We have serious felony creep in the US now. No doubt tough sentences provide some deterrence. Just look at China where they minimize illicit drug use by executing drug dealers. But do we really want to live in a society like China? That is why I suggest other approaches.

Honestly I am not directly affected by this so like most people I am unlikely to spend much time on this. I am far more concerned in politics with the erosion of our freedoms.