Starting a flying club
- Thread starter Jim Logajan
- Start date
Update:
Out of 370 names and addresses I've extracted 200 entries from the FAA registry who are in the Rapid City and surrounding area zip codes who also have had relatively recent medicals. I've chosen a tentative name of Pactola Flying Club (got website pactolaflying.club and reserved nonprofit name with SD) for the purpose of sending postcards out announcing the club to those pilots. But I need to get a few things settled before I do that. Probably another two weeks to send the postcards.
Out of 370 names and addresses I've extracted 200 entries from the FAA registry who are in the Rapid City and surrounding area zip codes who also have had relatively recent medicals. I've chosen a tentative name of Pactola Flying Club (got website pactolaflying.club and reserved nonprofit name with SD) for the purpose of sending postcards out announcing the club to those pilots. But I need to get a few things settled before I do that. Probably another two weeks to send the postcards.
I'm pretty sure that I need to have several concrete options to start with to let prospective members know what they will be getting into. So I ran several scenarios through a spreadsheet that AOPA provides. I've attached the spreadsheets and my summary of their contents. I'm hoping the assumed numbers are reasonable - the fact that the estimated costs are roughly in line (if a little high) with costs other club charge seems to suggest they are good enough during recruitment and formation stages. But I'd like to see the opinion of others here, particularly on the PDF summary document. A version is already up on the web site here, though the web site is not yet ready (I'm going to switch to a different Wordpress theme - already dislike the one I chose.)
I still need to compose a To-Do paperwork list for the club, such as incorporation, a template for the bylaws, and so on.
I still need to compose a To-Do paperwork list for the club, such as incorporation, a template for the bylaws, and so on.
A few thoughts on the costs:
Oil consumption of 0.2 per hour seems a bit high to me. My 1900 hour O-360 maybe burns a quart every 10 hours.
The club members can change the oil - that is a pilot maintenance item.
Reserve at $20/hour may be a little high. An overhaul of an 0-360 is perhaps $30k. Likely every 2500 hours.
But as you say, estimating a bit high and then having things work out more affordably will make people happy instead of sad. Other than that seems reasonable. I figure about $85/hour to run my C177A.
Oil consumption of 0.2 per hour seems a bit high to me. My 1900 hour O-360 maybe burns a quart every 10 hours.
The club members can change the oil - that is a pilot maintenance item.
Reserve at $20/hour may be a little high. An overhaul of an 0-360 is perhaps $30k. Likely every 2500 hours.
But as you say, estimating a bit high and then having things work out more affordably will make people happy instead of sad. Other than that seems reasonable. I figure about $85/hour to run my C177A.
Thanks, appreciate the feedback. I noticed some of the default expense amounts appeared a tad large, but adjusting those smaller expenses downward were generally not material. Beats me why they think an oil change is that expensive.
Also, after some further research I increased the price for a C-150 to $40k.
I could find very little info on lease rates for small GA aircraft. But the info I found suggests the 5%/year of the aircraft's value is probably too low. Lease amounts on big jets is more readily available and seems to vary quite a bit - but 12% to 15% seems a reasonable ballpark.
One other thing I noticed is that the near doubling of aircraft prices in the last two years makes experimental amateur built very compelling. While inflation has pushed kit prices up, it is nowhere near the amount of used aircraft.
Also, after some further research I increased the price for a C-150 to $40k.
I could find very little info on lease rates for small GA aircraft. But the info I found suggests the 5%/year of the aircraft's value is probably too low. Lease amounts on big jets is more readily available and seems to vary quite a bit - but 12% to 15% seems a reasonable ballpark.
One other thing I noticed is that the near doubling of aircraft prices in the last two years makes experimental amateur built very compelling. While inflation has pushed kit prices up, it is nowhere near the amount of used aircraft.
The run up in prices has been impressive and I agree the $40k seems better for the C-152, while simultaneously striking me as ridiculously high.
There are a lot of good reasons to go experimental. I suppose that if you had 10-15 people motivated to work on the kit, it could be done in a fair timeframe. With lots of people they build one in a week at OshKosh.
There are a lot of good reasons to go experimental. I suppose that if you had 10-15 people motivated to work on the kit, it could be done in a fair timeframe. With lots of people they build one in a week at OshKosh.
I've made a number of changes to my estimates and did some other edits. I created a simple blog-style website that I want to advertise in the postcards I'll be sending out (in addition to email address of course.) Feedback is requested on the blog postings I've made so far on the web site and anything else that I should address as part of the recruitment phase:
https://pactolaflying.club/
Currently I link to this thread for possible discussion but am thinking I should create a separate thread for those who choose to followup on this web site. They can also post comments to club website or contact directly by email.
https://pactolaflying.club/
Currently I link to this thread for possible discussion but am thinking I should create a separate thread for those who choose to followup on this web site. They can also post comments to club website or contact directly by email.
The image shows what I am planning to place on the address side of the postcards I'm going to send. I had originally included a contact email address but since that email address already appears on the website it seemed redundant. I'd rather they go directly to the web site anyway. I also know some in the database already own planes. My thinking is that it is easier to find planes for sale than lease, hence why I only ask those owners about leasing their planes. The alternative is to rephrase "consider leasing" to "consider leasing or selling". Anyone have an opinion or suggestion on any aspect? (I've added more content to the web site and edited some earlier posts.)
The Avery 8383 sheets I'm going to use have a glossy side and a non-glossy side. I presume the glossy side is for the picture or main content. Not sure how to best utilize it, if at all. More sales spiel? Additional details? A content-useless picture?
The Avery 8383 sheets I'm going to use have a glossy side and a non-glossy side. I presume the glossy side is for the picture or main content. Not sure how to best utilize it, if at all. More sales spiel? Additional details? A content-useless picture?
I think I would say something that makes it a bit clearer you are also looking for people that don’t own planes. Maybe the second sentence should start with something like, “If you already own a plane and would consider leasing it to the club, please also contact us”.
Also end with something like “We look forward to answering any questions you may have and having you join.”
Also end with something like “We look forward to answering any questions you may have and having you join.”
Those changes look good - thanks!
I did think of something useful to put on the glossy side of the postcard. I'm thinking this or some slight variant
Well, after an afternoon of effort the postcards are printed and stamped. Web site could use more explanatory material but hopefully it should do for now. Will put them in the mail tomorrow. Sending myself one to get an idea when others get theirs. Front and back photos. Guesstimating maybe 3 or 4 serious responses at most out of 200 postcards.
Costs so far:
I bought 3 packs of Avery 8383 (100 count) Postcards for Inkjet printers for a total of ~$55. I knew I would need more than 200 because I knew I'd likely screw up printing or suffer some feed problem. Both happened. Fortunately I only printed short runs to avoid destroying too much material.
(Because I had some partially printed rejects I ran some faucet water over them to see how they would smudge when wet. The glossy side's ink did not run at all or show through. The non-glossy side's ink did not run but did spread a little in spots and show through some to the glossy side. I was pleased by how well it handled getting wet.)
I ordered 200 postcard stamps from USPS (delivery is free!) that cost $88. I managed to wreck one stamp so put a regular stamp on one postcard.
The cost to reserve a non-profit corporate name in SD is $25.
The cost to register the first year of pactolaflying.club and pactolaflying.org (for those that automatically assume all non-profits must use that TLD) was $28.
I already pay for hosting at linode.com so no extra cost for web hosting. Installed Wordpress in order to get a simple web site up with minimal effort. So no cost there.
Have not tracked hours spent.
I bought 3 packs of Avery 8383 (100 count) Postcards for Inkjet printers for a total of ~$55. I knew I would need more than 200 because I knew I'd likely screw up printing or suffer some feed problem. Both happened. Fortunately I only printed short runs to avoid destroying too much material.
(Because I had some partially printed rejects I ran some faucet water over them to see how they would smudge when wet. The glossy side's ink did not run at all or show through. The non-glossy side's ink did not run but did spread a little in spots and show through some to the glossy side. I was pleased by how well it handled getting wet.)
I ordered 200 postcard stamps from USPS (delivery is free!) that cost $88. I managed to wreck one stamp so put a regular stamp on one postcard.
The cost to reserve a non-profit corporate name in SD is $25.
The cost to register the first year of pactolaflying.club and pactolaflying.org (for those that automatically assume all non-profits must use that TLD) was $28.
I already pay for hosting at linode.com so no extra cost for web hosting. Installed Wordpress in order to get a simple web site up with minimal effort. So no cost there.
Have not tracked hours spent.
Got emails from two interested pilots. One of them had not yet received their postcard but was responding because he was handed a postcard from another pilot recipient. He should likely get his own postcard soon. I have not gotten my delivery cross-check postcard, so hopefully will hear more responses in the next couple days as they get delivered.
I got an email today from a person who offered some local insight and would spread the word and ask around about aircraft, though he did not have a personal need to join the club. Got my own postcard today, most should have gotten theirs by now. But no new responses tonight (yet) so still sitting at two other interested people. Just have to wait and see if anyone responds by the weekend. If not my guesstimate of 3 or 4 responses will have been optimistic.
Could be a Catch-22 situation for people: not interested if no plane yet, but can't get a plane if no people. Or my deodorant isn't working.
The Mockingbird Flying Club in Sioux Falls, on the other side of the state, is 50 years old, has three airplanes and 37 members. Population of Sioux Falls is 196,528 while population of Rapid City is 76,184. If available pilot fraction is similar then Rapid City should support 37*76184/196528 ~= 14 potential club members.
Directly mailing all known prospects leaves me at a loss for what to do next other than be patient and wait. I've run an estimate on three people buying into a financed $30k VFR plane tied-down outside with 15% down payment, 10 year term, minimized overhead and run it by the other two next Monday to see if they could live with those numbers: $3300 joining fee, $225/month dues, $30/hr dry.
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Update: Including myself there are now 5 prospective members. My original guesstimate of 3 to 4 responses (1.5% to 2%) appears to have been surprisingly close.
The other interesting statistic is that I got back 8 cards as undeliverables. So 4% had not updated their address with the FAA. Tsk tsk.
The other interesting statistic is that I got back 8 cards as undeliverables. So 4% had not updated their address with the FAA. Tsk tsk.
This morning I got a call from Steve Bateman, Director of AOPA Flying Clubs Initiative, asking how things were going. He's been in contact trying to help me ever since I submitted an entry for the club to the AOPA's club finder web pages. I had to tell him I was held up on the first draft of the bylaws (among other things.)
Then in the afternoon I got an email from an airline pilot asking about membership. He would make a sixth possible member. I took these events as signs that I needed to get my ass in gear or the endeavor would die. So I sent off an email to all the prospects and invited them to a meeting, time and location to be set by when they report availability.
Hopefully I haven't been tardy too long. I also committed to having a first draft of bylaws done by Wednesday. Steve sent me a Word document with his flying club's bylaws, operating rules, and such. I'll probably use that as a template and modify it to be valid within local laws and incorporate my personal preferences. I was using another document as a template and editing it but got hung up on things I should not have worried about.
Then in the afternoon I got an email from an airline pilot asking about membership. He would make a sixth possible member. I took these events as signs that I needed to get my ass in gear or the endeavor would die. So I sent off an email to all the prospects and invited them to a meeting, time and location to be set by when they report availability.
Hopefully I haven't been tardy too long. I also committed to having a first draft of bylaws done by Wednesday. Steve sent me a Word document with his flying club's bylaws, operating rules, and such. I'll probably use that as a template and modify it to be valid within local laws and incorporate my personal preferences. I was using another document as a template and editing it but got hung up on things I should not have worried about.
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Good to hear it is moving along. I imagine you may just have to choose a time and date for the meeting that overlaps with some of the expressed preferences. I think the expression about cats and trying to move a group of them in one direction also applies to pilots 
Three of the five have responded to my emails. One of them is unable to join at this time. Another is swamped with work but says he is still interested and in any case is waiting for more details, such as cost (he does not have a license but would like to learn.)Good to hear it is moving along. I imagine you may just have to choose a time and date for the meeting that overlaps with some of the expressed preferences. I think the expression about cats and trying to move a group of them in one direction also applies to pilots
So at the moment there are only two of us that I can count on as willing and able. The other guy is an airline pilot (has a 747 type rating, among others) with about 7000 hours. He would be willing to put up to $5k and that matches my preferred budget. He would be willing to up that to $10k if it were a C-172. I'm so-so on that limit. But between the two of us, 15% to 20% down and a 20 year term that could work, though the monthly costs would be higher than I'd want.
Finished the first draft of proposed bylaws: https://pactolaflying.club/2023/01/20/first-draft-of-bylaws-and-other-rules/
Emailed that link to all who have expressed interest along with another invitation to meet. I proposed time ranges on Sunday, Monday, and Wednesday at two centrally located restaurants that can host small parties.
Emailed that link to all who have expressed interest along with another invitation to meet. I proposed time ranges on Sunday, Monday, and Wednesday at two centrally located restaurants that can host small parties.
A meeting is scheduled on Thursday of seriously interested prospective club members. All three of us.
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